“There’s just no good talent out there anymore.”
It’s something you hear all the time. Senior recruitment is at the heart of this challenge, particularly when it comes to effective leadership recruitment. Businesses blame the market, recruiters blame unrealistic expectations, candidates blame employers, and everyone leaves the conversation convinced somebody else is the problem.
The truth, however, is a little less dramatic.
There are brilliant leaders looking for opportunities. There are ambitious people ready to step into bigger roles. There are experienced executives who can transform businesses. The challenge isn’t that leadership talent has disappeared overnight. The challenge is that many organisations begin recruiting before they’ve properly worked out what they’re actually looking for.
It sounds obvious, but it’s one of the biggest reasons senior hires fail.
Recently, our very own MadeYou Founder, Luke, sat down with recruitment specialist Cordelia Morgan Cooper, Founder of CMC Consulting and Hands On Recruitment, to discuss what makes leadership recruitment successful.
Although the conversation covered everything from AI and salary expectations to onboarding and career progression, one theme kept resurfacing: the quality of a leadership hire often has less to do with finding exceptional candidates and far more to do with the work a business has done before recruitment even begins.
Defining the Right Leadership Role
When asked where she starts when a CEO says they’re struggling to hire senior leaders, Cordelia’s answer wasn’t about recruiters or candidate shortages. It was about understanding the business first. As she explained:
Sometimes companies are lucky that they have good reputations externally, but internally it's a little bit chaotic. Are you looking for problem solvers? Are you looking for someone to come in and make big changes? There are many different types of senior leadership roles and it's important to understand what you're really looking for.
Cordelia Morgan CooperFounder of CMC Consulting
A business might begin the conversation convinced they need someone innovative because growth has slowed. Dig a little deeper and innovation isn’t actually what’s missing. The leadership team already has plenty of ideas. What they don’t have is someone who can bring structure, align people around a common direction and make sure those ideas become reality.
On another occasion, the issue might have nothing to do with leadership capability at all. Expectations around salary, location or flexible working may have shifted significantly since the organisation last recruited. The role itself hasn’t adapted, but the market certainly has.
That’s why recruitment shouldn’t begin with a job advert. It should begin with curiosity.
Understanding the challenge you’re asking someone to solve shapes everything that follows and lays the foundation for how to hire the right talent. It influences the responsibilities you include, the experience you prioritise, the questions you ask in interviews and, ultimately, the people you’re hoping to attract.
Without that clarity, recruitment can quickly become an exercise in searching for someone who looks impressive on paper rather than someone who genuinely fits the needs of the business.
When Leadership Job Descriptions Miss the Mark
Every organisation has one. It’s usually buried somewhere on a shared drive. A job description that was written years ago, updated every now and then, and gradually stretched to accommodate every new responsibility that’s appeared since.
Nobody deliberately sets out to create an unrealistic role. It happens gradually. At some point, many job descriptions quietly stop describing a role and start describing a superhero.
Luke speaks about businesses searching for what he described as a “unicorn.” The thing is the talent does exist, but the problem is that the role has gradually become so broad that finding someone who excels in every area becomes incredibly difficult.
The funny thing is that nobody deliberately creates these impossible briefs. They evolve over time. A responsibility gets added because someone leaves. Another department gets absorbed after a restructure. New projects arrive. Priorities change. Before anyone notices, one role has inherited the work that used to belong to two or three people.
When recruitment stalls, it’s tempting to assume the talent isn’t there. Sometimes it’s worth stepping back and asking a different question.
Has the role quietly outgrown itself?
Simplifying a job description doesn’t lower the standard. Quite the opposite. It gives candidates a much clearer understanding of where they can add value and helps businesses assess people against realistic expectations rather than an ever-growing wish list.
Using AI Without Losing the Human Touch
It would have been impossible to discuss recruitment without talking about AI.
Like most industries, recruitment has embraced technology at remarkable speed. AI can draft job descriptions, summarise CVs, identify transferable skills and remove many of the administrative tasks that used to consume recruiters’ time.
Those developments are genuinely exciting. They also create a temptation to mistake efficiency for understanding.
Cordelia shared an example that perfectly illustrated the point. A client wanted to recruit someone for a role almost identical to one they’d seen at another organisation. The job description looked professional. It covered all the right responsibilities. There was just one problem. It belonged to a business four times the size.
The reporting structure was different. The scale of the role was different. The commercial challenges were different. Even the pace of decision-making would have been completely different.
On paper, the two positions looked remarkably similar. In reality, they were asking for very different leaders. AI can help businesses write better documents. It can organise information faster than any human ever could.
What it can’t do is understand the personality of a leadership team, the ambitions of a founder, or the subtle dynamics that make one organisation completely different from another.
That’s still something people discover through conversation, experience and asking thoughtful questions.
Hiring Leaders for Their Future, Not Their Past
When organisations recruit senior leaders, there is often a strong temptation to search for people already doing exactly the same job somewhere else. But there is a question many business dont often ask; Are you recruiting the person who’s already doing the job, or the person who’s ready to?
It’s understandable why organisations gravitate towards experience. Hiring someone who already holds the same title feels like the safer option. They know the role, they’ve faced similar challenges before and there’s a level of reassurance that comes from seeing a familiar career path.
What deserves equal attention, however, is potential.
Luke shared the example of recruiting a Head of Marketing. The obvious shortlist might consist entirely of other Heads of Marketing. Yet somewhere in that process, there’s likely to be a Senior Marketing Manager who has spent years exceeding expectations, leading projects well beyond their remit and quietly preparing for the next step in their career.
The difference between those two candidates is usually opportunity.
Businesses sometimes become so focused on hiring proven experience that they overlook proven potential – a mistake that can contribute to poor talent management over the long term.
People stepping into their first senior leadership role often arrive with enormous motivation. They’re excited by the challenge, eager to prove themselves, and fully invested in making the opportunity a success.
That’s not to say experience isn’t valuable. It absolutely is. It simply isn’t the only predictor of future success.
Why Great Recruitment Takes Balance
If there was one frustration that repeatedly surfaced during the conversation, it was the growing pressure to hire quickly. A leadership vacancy appears and suddenly everyone wants the process completed within weeks.
Candidates need to be available immediately. They should already live nearby. They must come from a specific competitor. Ideally, they shouldn’t need to relocate or serve a lengthy notice period.
Every new requirement makes the talent pool a little smaller. Eventually businesses find themselves wondering why nobody suitable exists. Cordelia explained that many organisations also dismiss candidates serving longer notice periods, even though those individuals are often some of the strongest leaders in the market. Waiting a little longer for the right person can prove far more valuable than filling the position quickly with someone who isn’t quite the right fit.
There is, of course, another danger. Moving too slowly. Great candidates don’t wait forever either. The best recruitment processes strike a balance. They move with purpose, but they also create enough space to genuinely get to know the person sitting across the table. Senior leadership isn’t an entry level role.
A CV tells you where someone has worked. It tells you almost nothing about how they’ll lead through uncertainty, challenge assumptions or fit within your culture. Those conversations take time, and they’re worth making time for.
Setting New Leaders Up for Success
Recruitment often receives enormous attention right up until the offer is accepted. After that, businesses sometimes assume everything will naturally fall into place.
Even the most experienced leader walks into a new organisation without knowing every relationship, every unwritten rule or every expectation that exists beneath the surface.
Businesses sometimes assume senior appointments require less support because of their experience.
The opposite is often true. The more senior the position, the more important clarity becomes.
During the conversation, Cordelia emphasised the importance of discussing the organisation’s priorities before someone even joins. What should success look like after the first month? Which challenges require immediate attention? Where is the business heading over the next six months?
Few growing businesses have every answer perfectly mapped out. They don’t need to. What leaders are looking for is direction. Because without it, even exceptional people spend valuable time trying to understand where they should focus their energy instead of creating impact.
Onboarding continues long after a new leader’s first week. The conversations that happen during those early months help people understand the business, build relationships across the organisation and develop the confidence to make decisions with clarity.
Those early conversations help build confidence long before someone’s first day.
Why Great Leaders Choose One Business Over Another
Salary will always matter. Nobody is pretending otherwise.
But experienced leaders are also thinking about how they’ll work, who they’ll work with, and whether they’ll be able to make a meaningful contribution. Autonomy, flexibility, trust, and opportunities to continue developing all influence whether someone chooses one organisation over another, making employer branding more important than ever.
It’s something Cordelia has seen repeatedly when speaking with senior candidates:
Autonomy and flexibility are so undervalued, but they are so appreciated by candidates.
Cordelia Morgan CooperFounder of CMC Consulting
Career progression has evolved as well. Not everyone measures success by becoming a CEO or managing increasingly larger teams. Many people want to broaden their expertise, contribute at a higher level, or continue learning without necessarily changing job titles.
Organisations that understand these motivations often find it easier to attract and retain exceptional people because they’re offering more than a promotion. They’re offering an environment where talented people can continue growing.
Building Stronger Leadership Teams Starts Here
It’s easy to believe recruitment is all about assessing candidates. The strongest organisations spend just as much time assessing themselves.
They understand the challenges they’re asking someone to solve. They build realistic roles instead of impossible wish lists. They use technology to support good decision-making rather than replace it. They stay open to potential alongside experience, and they invest as much energy into helping leaders succeed as they do into finding them.
Perhaps that’s why the best recruitment conversations begin with questions about the business. Because before you can identify the right leader, you first need to understand what kind of leadership you’re actually looking for.
A special thank you to Cordelia, Founder of CMC Consulting, for sharing her expertise and insights throughout this conversation. Her experience in leadership recruitment brought valuable perspective to many of the ideas explored in this article. You can learn more about her work at CMC Consulting.
At MadeYou, we believe leadership doesn’t happen by chance. As the role of HR continues to evolve, organisations need to invest in both hiring and developing exceptional leaders.
Whether you’re recruiting your next senior leader or developing the people already within your organisation, we help businesses build confident, capable leaders through coaching, leadership development programmes and practical training. Because when people thrive, organisations do too.
Edited by Kylee Sargent based on a recored conversation between Luke Todd and Cordelia Morgan Cooper
Transcript
Luke (00:00)
I’ve invited a good friend of mine, Cordelia, so that we can talk about maximizing the impact of senior leader recruitment, as well as some other recruitment topics. Before I get started, Cordelia, can you introduce yourself just in case anyone doesn’t know who you are?
Cordelia (00:15)
Yes, thank you so much for having me Luke. So hi everyone, I’m Cordelia. I’m the founder of CMC Consulting and Hands-on Recruitment. We’re boutique recruitment specialists within iGaming, emerging tech, technology, and also high volume hospitality. And we also offer outsourced HR solutions within those verticals as well.
Luke (00:36)
Nice. So today we are talking about senior leadership recruitment. I think one of my first questions is if a CEO approached you and they said that they were struggling to hire good leaders, what was the first thing that you would investigate with that CEO? How would you delve into that a bit deeper?
Cordelia (00:55)
Well, look, I think that the
Cordelia (00:56)
market is so saturated at the moment that the first thing I would probably look for is the reputation of the business.
Cordelia (01:02)
think at the moment, reputation is really everything. And that can mean that you either can attract great talent or you really can’t. So I’d want to see, you know, in the market what the reputation of that company is. And I’d also want to sit down and kind of sit with them and chat honestly, you know, what are the, say that you have challenges with recruitment. What do those challenges entail? Is it that, you know,
Cordelia (01:25)
you’re looking to offer 50k and the role is actually 120k, well straight away that’s a salary problem. Or is it that you want everybody in the office but actually that’s not competitive for the role that you are looking to recruit for? Or are you looking to recruit in an office in a location that is just not attractive for candidates at that level? I think there are many different hiring challenges when it comes to senior leaders but I think it’s important to consider that it normally isn’t just one, it’s normally a
Cordelia (01:55)
combination of at least a few things and also you know to look internally because sometimes companies are lucky that they have good reputations externally but internally we would have worked with businesses like this we know that it’s a little bit chaotic inside so it’s also about trying to attract the right people you know when you’re looking at hiring senior leaders are you looking for problem solvers are you looking for someone to come in make big changes and then maybe they transition out I think there are many different types of senior
Cordelia (02:25)
leadership like roles and it’s important to understand if you’re looking for this yeah building from the ground up a problem solver or a fixer.
Luke (02:34)
Yeah, I think even when I go in and I’m working with CEOs as well and they’re talking about challenges in regards to senior leaders, I think we are touching on some of the things that even I would touch on, which is what specifically are you needing? What specifically are you looking for? And I think sometimes it’s the they may have loads of ideas and they say they’re looking for an innovative person when actually if you’ve already got all those ideas, you need an implement and not not under
Cordelia (02:59)
Yes.
Luke (02:59)
the ideas person because the business is just going to be full of ideas and no execution.
Luke (03:04)
And then I also see a lot of CEOs are very conscious about how many direct reports they have. So they’re almost trying to combine roles together so that they’re looking for this wonderful unicorn that doesn’t exist. Because actually, when you split the job description out into what it should be, it’s two senior roles and not one. And I mean, I’m not saying the unicorns don’t exist, but they’re a lot harder to find than two specific entities. So I think you touched on something really good there, which is kind of investigating what’s going on and what
Luke (03:33)
what really are they looking for? Because I think sometimes a job description doesn’t always represent what a CEO is
Cordelia (03:39)
Hopefully.
Luke (03:39)
truly looking for. You know, it makes sense.
Cordelia (03:41)
Yeah, and I think
Cordelia (03:42)
as well, when you look at a job description, unless a business has been really focused on building that job description for that specific role, I know, and you know, when I worked internally, we often use the same job description for the same role three or four years later. Yeah, okay, the number of reports is the same. The actual structure of the role is the same, but maybe the roles actually really change and it’s moved from one, it’s moved from fighting fires to actually building
Cordelia (04:11)
something new and that’s not reflected in the job description. So I think it’s also up to recruitment teams to make sure that that information is really up to date, but also that they’re able to discuss honestly with the candidate that, you know, if this is going to be an extremely challenging role, that that’s also translated to the people applying rather than you’re going to come in, everything’s set up, ready to go. And then on day one, you come in and you’re like, whoa, what is this?
Luke (04:38)
Yeah, I even see a lot of organizations these days is they’re getting a little bit lazy with job descriptions and almost.
Luke (04:44)
using AI to pull out job descriptions from, even if they’re looking at similar organisations. even if I’m thinking about iGaming, I’m typically working with quite a lot of affiliates and the sizes
Cordelia (04:54)
Yes.
Luke (04:55)
of the affiliates are completely different. So if you’re basically asking AI to pull a job description from a very large affiliate organisation for a senior role and then position it in your affiliates, which is a lot smaller, it doesn’t represent the organisation. It’s like what you’re saying as well from a reputation point of view. If I’m a candidate,
Luke (05:15)
What makes this role different than the other role? Because on paper they look exactly the same, where there’s actually reputation, the organisation, what the challenges would be when I got in. That’s all what would get a senior leader very excited and almost
Cordelia (05:27)
Yes.
Luke (05:27)
want them to apply.
Cordelia (05:28)
when it comes to like AI.
Cordelia (05:31)
I think one of the real problems that I see is that people are becoming way too dependent on it. It’s like, there’s no common sense anymore. It’s like, but we’ll just use what Claude or ChatGPT is saying as like gospel. And that’s actually really frightening. Like we had a client, I need to not be too specific so people can’t work out who it is, but we had a client come to us with a job description from their competitor and said, we want to recruit exactly this job.
Cordelia (06:01)
But it’s not them. It’s us and it was like but your business is a quarter of the size So everything
Luke (06:07)
Yep.
Cordelia (06:07)
in the job description is different. Yes You want to hire people from those competitors, but that job description does not fit who you are as a business So, of course, we can’t use that because the number of reports is not true the number of Areas of responsibility in a business four times larger is going to be totally different than a much smaller company that’s earlier on in that kind of growth phase and I think that
Cordelia (06:31)
if people aren’t really careful, they are gonna fall into the trap of this just total dependence on AI, and that is actually going to set businesses back. And I think that…
Cordelia (06:44)
The best way to use AI is that it’s a tool for us to develop what we know and it’s to help make manual tasks quicker. For me, I will never, and I’ll die on this cross. I will never use AI to find candidates for me, to source for me. You know, that’s what I’m paid client by clients for to find those candidates myself. And I am a hundred percent sure that many candidates that we’ve got offers for that have gone on
Cordelia (07:14)
to join businesses this year, if they had gone through an AI funnel, they wouldn’t have passed the AI test because perfectly imperfect is what we look for and I think the thing is that AI often looks for too much of a match that doesn’t actually exist or reflect who that business is.
Luke (07:33)
Yeah, very much so. I’m completely aligned with that. I’m a big fan of AI, but I think AI usage should be about taking away the tasks that a robot can do and allowing you to be more human in those elements that require that human intervention. And I know
Cordelia (07:49)
Totally.
Luke (07:49)
where we’re talking about recruitment in general from an AI perspective, but when we’re talking about senior leaders specifically is…
Luke (07:54)
that that actual human interaction is going to be vital because you’re not going to get a sense of the business. You’re not going to get a sense of the people that you’re going to be working with or working for from an AI model handling most of the recruitment process. I’m definitely aligned with you on that one. Other than what you’ve just mentioned, what do you think is the biggest mistake that organizations tend to make when they’re recruiting senior leaders specifically or common mistakes?
Cordelia (08:20)
I think the most common mistakes for larger businesses is trying to poach candidates from like…
Cordelia (08:30)
what they view as like A-star competitors or other businesses. I think the challenge is that if you recruit these like super high profile people, they also come with high demands, high expectations. And I think that often the people that are most able to succeed are the ones that it’s a bit of a challenge for them in the new role. They, you know, they hit seven out of the 10 things and they really want to achieve more and push on more and be
Cordelia (09:00)
more successful. I think that sometimes when businesses try to kind of overachieve by taking these like real like superstars, they’re just not able to give them what they need and they end up you know six months to a year deciding that they’re going to move on which is you know huge disappointment for the new business but also probably for the employee too because they feel like they haven’t really been fulfilled in the way that they thought they might.
Luke (09:25)
Yeah, I think I’m aligned with that in a slightly different direction. One of the things that I see is almost job title. think is when you advertise for a director product externally, you’re advertising for someone who’s almost 50 % strategic and 50 % operational. When you’re looking at the actual functionality of the role, they want more of a head of product who is much more, you know, a little bit less strategic, but a little bit more operational. And I think sometimes those titles make them go to market.
Luke (09:53)
almost looking for the wrong profile of the role that they’re doing. And I understand
Cordelia (09:55)
Totally.
Luke (09:56)
in organizations, we have to give people job titles, but almost looking as does the job title represent exactly what we’re looking for? And I think one
Cordelia (10:03)
Yeah.
Luke (10:04)
of the other things that you touched on as well is potential. almost think, and I’m being a little bit contrary here, but I almost think is if I’m looking for a head of marketing and I’m advertising for a head of marketing and I’m only interviewing head of marketing.
Luke (10:19)
then for me, I’m being contrary. But why would a head of marketing and another business want to work for me? What is inspiring them to leave? Is it more money? Is it the fact that they haven’t got job opportunity to progress? Or is there something else going on? But if they haven’t got opportunities for progression in their current business, and that means if I hire them in my business is within six months, 12 months, they’re going to want progression. Otherwise, why else would they have moved? So I almost think is in those kind of situations, are we looking at the
Luke (10:47)
the senior marketing manager, some organization that’s got all that potential to be a head of, what you’re saying is they’re gonna find it a challenge. And it’s almost like they haven’t got the opportunity to step into a head of role because there’s a head of that’s not gonna move, but they definitely are capable of a head of role.
Cordelia (11:02)
Yes.
Luke (11:03)
That’s more exciting, because that’s why somebody would want to leave from a management,
Cordelia (11:06)
official.
Luke (11:07)
a senior manager into a head of role. But head of to head of, it’s almost like.
Luke (11:11)
you’re either jumping for more salary, in which case in 12 months time you’re going to ask me for more salary. You’re jumping because you’re not getting progression, which means in 12 months time you’re going to ask for progression and I’m back to square one again. Or there’s something wrong with your performance, in which case in 12 months time I’m going to have a problem with your performance. So and I am being crontary because I’m sweeping statement. I believe there are some good heads of out there that just
Cordelia (11:31)
Of course.
Luke (11:31)
the culture, the culture fits not right. And therefore they will be amazing in another role. But I think one of the common mistakes I see is them just.
Luke (11:39)
recruit, recruiting leaders not opening themselves up to the potential of growth into that role and what that means.
Cordelia (11:49)
Yeah, and I think, one of the things that we’re also seeing in the market, definitely, you know, within CMC consulting and like me personally too, is clients want more for less. So they are happy to undercut candidates at office stage. I mean, we had a CEO role in Malta being advertised with us and the client wanted to pay 60,000 and had no idea why we couldn’t find anyone. It was like, that’s not a CEO
Luke (12:17)
Wow.
Cordelia (12:17)
salary.
Luke (12:20)
When yeah
Cordelia (12:20)
It’s impossible.
Cordelia (12:22)
It’s impossible to find somebody at that. I mean, I kind of was in the call trying to be polite, but I mean, it’s laughable. You can’t offer a salary at that level. So either the job description doesn’t fit the role, in which case we need to look at the salary and bring it down and minimize the level of the role, or you need to double it or treble it and then we can find the candidates for you. So I think it feels like at the moment in Malta that a lot of like mine and my team’s role is actually on education and on saying to
Cordelia (12:52)
the clients look, you know, if you want this level of candidate, this is what you’re going to have to pay. And if you don’t want to pay that, yes, we can look at other European countries, no problem. Or we can look at, you know, like, you know, other options. Maybe you look at somebody part time. I mean, there lots of other ways that businesses can do it. But yeah, I think that that’s the challenge we have at the moment. And I mean, I’ve mentioned this on a couple of other discussions as well. You know, we are seeing everywhere that clients are undercutting the
Cordelia (13:22)
salary expectations. So a candidate all the way through the process is looking for 80k. They’re probably on 72, 68, and they’re looking for 80, which is a fair uplift considering their experience. The client loves them all the way through, and then an offer stage, oh, we’re going to offer them 70. But they were introduced to 80. Well, we know that they’ll probably take 70. And for me, it’s a little bit disappointing that we’re in this kind of like…
Cordelia (13:50)
hard sales with great candidates because the market is flooded with fantastic candidates at the moment due to lot of redundancies, business structures changing, and it feels a little bit like a lot of companies are taking advantage of that. And that’s something which I don’t particularly like to see because I know the market rate and I know the value of a candidate. And just because you can get somebody cheaper, I don’t think it means that you really should.
Luke (14:16)
Yeah, and I’m totally aligned with that. I think it almost sets the expectations of what you expect to happen within the first 12 months when you do something like that.
Cordelia (14:24)
Yeah, totally.
Luke (14:25)
It doesn’t mean necessarily you miss out on the candidate. You might get them for the 70 in your example, but in six, 10 months time, especially if they’re an outperformer or an overachiever, and then they’re very marketable and somebody’s going to come along and offer them a lot more than 80, never mind 70. it’s almost like for me, it goes back to that kind of
Luke (14:45)
business mentality of what’s the return on investment and you can even be clear when somebody comes in and you’re setting the expectations from day one you can even be very clear about what you expect for that 80,000 and if they’re an overachiever or top performer they’re going to work their butt off in order to do that and that’s perfectly fine so I think there’s a disconnect between treating people as the leaders that you’re hiring them to be in that initial
Cordelia (15:11)
today.
Luke (15:12)
stage.
Luke (15:14)
If a, I mean, this might be something that touches a little bit on your business model a little bit as well, which is if a senior leader hire fails, do you think it’s usually because it was the wrong hire or do you think it’s something that where the organization has failed to help them succeed?
Cordelia (15:33)
I think, and this isn’t just answering kind of diplomatically, it’s really, it’s really what I think. I think it’s
Luke (15:38)
Hey.
Cordelia (15:42)
a combination of the two. I think, look, sometimes businesses do just hire the wrong people, but I think also,
Cordelia (15:51)
you can very easily set somebody up to fail if they’re not properly, you know, put through an induction that, you know, they understand the layout of the business, the challenges. I mean, you know, where do you see the business going in 30, 60, 90 days? It’s a really basic question. But if the business is able to answer that throughout an interview process, I would be nervous then about joining. They need to have a plan, not just for me or for you, but for the business in its entirety. And, know, a lot of the companies that we partner with
Cordelia (16:21)
are quite early on in their growth journey and they think they know where they’re going to go and often they don’t really know. And that’s part of the excitement, you know, that sometimes you join a startup and then in six months time it’s scaled and you know your role then changes but I think it’s really important that that core is there because without that it’s almost like you’re just stabbing in the dark.
Luke (16:47)
Yeah, and I think those are the kind of conversations that you would be expecting to have in a senior level recruitment process
Cordelia (16:52)
Yes.
Luke (16:52)
anyway. And you’re right, I would be nervous if those answers couldn’t be. And I think one of things I noticed from the other side is organizations, especially the dynamic organizations that we typically work with, they’re reluctant to say things because they’re constantly putting the caveat of…
Luke (17:08)
things will change, we’re too dynamic, we can’t really say. And I’ve worked in, even when I worked at eBay, it’s like we did three-year planning, three-year forecasting, three-year budget planning, three-year project initiatives, and we worked on a three-year cycle. That doesn’t mean that on year two, I’m definitely gonna do what I said last year I was gonna do on year two, it just means that I can have that conversation as of today.
Luke (17:29)
but then in six months time, that conversation could look differently. But I should be able to still have that conversation based on the knowledge I have today, especially in a senior leadership interview process.
Cordelia (17:38)
Yeah, absolutely.
Luke (17:40)
I think I’m in line with you where it’s a bit of both. And I think I have to be honest with this is I renowned myself on being a great rate and higher. I can spot talent. I’ve always said that it’s pretty good.
Luke (17:52)
But I even remember one example when I worked in London, not at eBay, thankfully, where I was certain this candidate was like amazing and I brought him in. I even think for the first two months I was like, no, everyone’s giving me feedback on this guy’s no. And I’m like, no, we just need to give him the opportunity. I’ll invest in it. And then I think before the probation was about six months, I had to kind of concede as I made the wrong hire. But everything during the whole process was correct. And then for me, on paper and in process, he was the right hire.
Luke (18:20)
and I also did all the support. So I do think sometimes it’s a bit out of our control. I get asked a lot of times, you might laugh at this for interview training or how to hire talent. even do a how to hire talent course for the perfect model. And I’m just like, there’s no way in the world any model can’t guarantee 100 % success because people are people.
Cordelia (18:37)
No. Yeah.
Luke (18:40)
But I do think it’s a combination of both is hire the right people and then also empower them to succeed.
Cordelia (18:47)
Yeah, and I think as well, you know, just like you said, people are people and human nature means that maybe this person was the best person at the time of the interview process, but maybe they’ve got, you know, huge challenges in their personal life. Maybe there are things going on elsewhere that means that they’re not able to focus properly. And I think that…
Cordelia (19:08)
It’s very easy for any one of us in like a leadership role to look and say, you know, work is work and work life balance. And, know, there are constant debates. Does work life balance exists? Can it exist? Should it exist? Do we want it to exist? All of this. But actually sometimes it’s the right person, but the wrong time. You know, it’s the same as in a relationship. Sometimes you meet somebody and they are perfect for you and you’re perfect for them, but it’s just not the
Cordelia (19:38)
right time and I think that sometimes that’s the same in work that you may have so many other things going on other priorities that you’re not able to give work your proper focus and maybe at that point that’s when the business decides you know what you’re not actually what we need now but if we’d hired you two years ago or if we were to hire you in three years in the future then it would actually work out very differently.
Luke (20:02)
Totally agree, totally agree. Given what we’re talking about is, do you think any senior leaders who are hiring people, so the people on the other side of the table as it was, do you think there’s some capabilities that they lack currently in order to spot the right talent? Because interviewing and hiring process is a skill in itself. So do you
Cordelia (20:23)
Yes.
Luke (20:23)
think we’re missing something on the other side, the person on the other side of the table asking the questions?
Cordelia (20:28)
I think…
Cordelia (20:29)
It seems to me, and I’m not sure if you see this as well, you know, when training, you know, people within businesses, that everyone is in such a rush at the moment. It’s like, you know, the CEO and the senior leadership team have sat down and they’ve decided we need this role, but we need it in three weeks time, in a month’s time. And then, you know, we’re working on the role. We can’t consider candidates on two months notice because it’s too slow. So then automatically the pool is like trimmed down three months, six months, forget it.
Cordelia (20:59)
a month’s notice and they don’t want them to relocate from anywhere, they already have to be in Malta for example. So the pool is getting smaller and smaller and then no but we only want them to have worked for a company like this or like this, okay so the pool is smaller again. And then you know you’re missing out on great people that could be a fantastic fit that maybe they left Malta four years ago, him and his wife they moved to the UK but they’re actually keen to move back but they need a little bit longer than four weeks. It feels like there’s this knee-jerk reaction at the moment that it’s like if a business
Cordelia (21:29)
feels
Cordelia (21:29)
like it needs to be turned around. It’s like, well, we’ll just hire new people and we need to get them in as soon as possible. And you know as well as I do that rushing recruitment processes, I mean, in the same way that taking too long is not good either, there’s a happy medium, but rushing things means that you often don’t see the red flags. And it’s very easy for somebody to appear the perfect candidate in a one stage process and a presentation that they haven’t even had to present, they’ve just emailed in rather than
Cordelia (21:59)
than three stages, meeting different stakeholders, maybe meeting somebody face to face, going out for a drink, a coffee, whatever it is, and kind of getting to know them on more of a personal level, and also being able to gather those more personal references. If things are too rushed, I feel like that that’s often where mistakes are made, and it’s like, if we had just waited a little bit longer, or if we had just looked into things a little bit more, then maybe we would have chosen a more suitable applicant.
Luke (22:28)
Yeah, I think I totally agree with what you’re saying as well about the rushing of the process and also the how long a process can be. It’s almost trying to find the middle ground. And I like what you’re saying, which is having those. I mean, we’re talking about senior leaders. So going out for a drink, whether it’s a coffee or a glass of wine and
Cordelia (22:44)
Yes.
Luke (22:44)
having more of a social conversation is a perfectly acceptable kind of process to do to gather more information and get an understanding of them. And when I’m coaching CEOs, typically as well, I’m also working on.
Luke (22:55)
them understanding that who they build rapport with in an interview might not be who they want because we will find it easier to build rapport with people who are similar to us. But if
Cordelia (23:04)
course.
Luke (23:05)
I’m an idea CEO and an innovative CEO, I don’t want to, I mean, if I’m having a good interview, hour long interview and we’re bouncing ideas off each other and it’s going great, I might feel, my God, this candidate’s amazing, but you don’t need another ideas person. You are an ideas person. The person, you still need a rapport, but it’s almost like,
Luke (23:23)
I want somebody who can operationally deliver. I want somebody who’s gonna spot risks and identify risks. I’m almost looking for that direct report that might be a little bit opposite than me because
Cordelia (23:32)
Yes.
Luke (23:32)
I can fill all this bit. It’s this bit that’s missing. But when I’m interviewing and that report is the real vibe, that’s probably with somebody who’s very similar to me. So I’m just gonna hire a mini me and then you’ve
Cordelia (23:43)
Yes.
Luke (23:43)
got problems in yourself. So I think sometimes as well working with CEOs, it’s about them understanding is…
Luke (23:49)
what we said earlier, what specifically are you looking for? Let’s target that. But then remember that in the interview process is if you are, if you’re not looking for an innovate, innovate and you’re wanting somebody who can literally lead on execution and delivery, then that conversation should be more about leading on execution. It shouldn’t be
Cordelia (24:07)
Yes.
Luke (24:07)
more about those ideas and innovations because then you’re bringing in a great person who you’ve got great rapport in, but you’re going to put them in a role where they’re going to be ineffective. So I think that also aligns with everything you’re saying about.
Luke (24:19)
When we talk about senior leaders, other than salary, which I’m going to smile at because salaries obviously we don’t work for nothing, but other than salary, what do you think impacts the candidate’s decision to say yes or say no?
Cordelia (24:33)
I think depending on how senior the leadership role is, so if we take CEO out…
Cordelia (24:39)
because there’s nowhere else you really go in the business, right? If we’re looking at, I don’t know, a director of marketing, for example, that could maybe transition into something more senior, like somewhere where there are a couple of levels. I think really people want to see progression opportunities, their own career development. I think autonomy and flexibility are so undervalued, but they are so appreciated by candidates. I think…
Cordelia (25:08)
for businesses to become more performance focused as opposed to output focused as opposed to like hours worked. I think that those businesses seem to be the ones where candidates are really keen and really excited to join.
Luke (25:24)
No, I agree. And obviously, you know, I’m going to mention what you mentioned, which is this kind of growth mindset as well as that people, people typically, whether whether they want vertical progression or not, everyone wants growth. And I think horizontal growth is becoming a lot more needed and required and asked for than ever before. And I think is more.
Luke (25:45)
old school leaders, we were always taught to develop the people who wanted vertical progression. That was where our focus was. But there’s a lot more people wanting that horizontal remit. And when we’re talking about C level as well, you mentioned it is some people don’t want to be a CEO. So it’s like they may get a chief marketing officer’s job, but then they don’t have any aspirations to be CEO. I don’t want that job.
Luke (26:05)
So, but I still want growth and development. So what are you going to do for me? So how are you investing me? So I think these kinds of things become much more important. mean, a salary is for me is the base. We don’t do it for nothing, but after salary is what am I personally getting that’s helping me as an individual and have more impact.
Cordelia (26:21)
Yeah, yeah,
Cordelia (26:23)
and I think as well, traditionally, progression was viewed as, you know, you would go from like an SEO expert, let’s say.
Cordelia (26:36)
And then the next step up would be to a manager to be managing people. And actually some very good technical people don’t want to manage people. So I don’t know what happened in the kind of corporate world to then assume that the next step up is always managing people. Some people are not natural leaders. And I think that we shouldn’t be pushing people to manage people just because it’s seen as like, well, that’s the next step up. I think that businesses where people can grow and develop vertically.
Cordelia (27:06)
and horizontally without having to take human responsibilities, that’s probably a much healthier way to be because you can be growing all of the time but actually not wanting to have that human responsibility and that’s also fine.
Luke (27:22)
Yeah, very much so. I mean, I’ve even I even work with an organization here, Malta, where there’s actually progression, vertical progression, but from that specialist mentality. So you can
Cordelia (27:31)
Yes.
Luke (27:32)
go into more senior specialist roles in the same discipline and never end up with people management. So I think and that’s when you actually start seeing so people still want horizontal. They don’t want to the extra responsibility where life balance comes back in there. But I think having this kind of spectrum of if you want to stay an individual contributor.
Luke (27:51)
as a senior specialist, there’s progression or there’s horizontal.
Cordelia (27:54)
Yes.
Luke (27:54)
And if you actually want to stay in your discipline, there’s management progression or there’s horizontal progression. And having this whole spectrum, I think I even referred to it as one thing, the career ladder is dead, but the jungle gym is alive because I think it is literally, we could
Cordelia (28:06)
Yes.
Luke (28:08)
end up anywhere as long as we’re getting grown and developed. So I think that’s really, really kind of thing. I don’t know how often you have this happen. I hope it’s very rarely, but.
Luke (28:18)
Is there ever an occasion where you would see a strong candidate dropping out of the process? And if so, if that’s ever happened, what are the kind of typical reasons that would prompt a senior leader who’s very strong, very good for that role that would just say, this isn’t for me?
Cordelia (28:35)
Yeah, so I think, look, this year has been a very interesting year recruitment wise, and we’ve seen, yeah, a number of candidates just before office stage drop out, you know, within senior leadership roles. I think it’s a combination of things. I think the market is changing a lot at the moment, and it feels like, and my advice has really been kind of up into this point, what are we like, the start of July, that if you’re not very unhappy where you are, I wouldn’t advise going for a new role.
Cordelia (29:05)
And the reason that I say that is, know, salaries being really the front and foremost thing that all the clients are looking to pay. So the salary that you’re looking for, you’re most likely not going to get. The competitive element of the people that you will be going up against will be probably the strongest they’ve ever been. You know, but previously we would have two candidates, three max for a final stage.
Cordelia (29:31)
you’re now seeing between seven to 10, sometimes between three agencies. And you know, that’s a lot of stress for people going through that. And also we know how small the market is. Confidentiality, of course we keep, but it’s very easy for clients to then, it ends up being their sister’s brother’s friend is in the recruitment team. And then suddenly the new company and the old company are aligned and they know that this person is going for, you know, the new role.
Cordelia (30:01)
And I think that the problem is that, of course, we live in a free world. We’re not stuck in any role. You can move to any job or any company you want. But unfortunately, sometimes it’s seen as a kind of lack of trust. If then that person then doesn’t get the role, they then stay in their old role. But the company knows that they’ve been actively recruiting and actively looking
Luke (30:25)
Yeah.
Cordelia (30:26)
for a new role.
Luke (30:28)
Yeah, very much so. I also, when I’m working with people who are, that is, and I agree with you, you need to make sure that you are ready to move before you move. Because I almost think is once you start even like trying it out and looking around and you even have one stage interview, psychologically, you’re already detracting from your current job. It’s very hard to go back into a passionate, energetic.
Luke (30:55)
your current job if you’ve already started a process somewhere else, even
Luke (30:59)
if it was just speculative. So I really am the same as you. urge people to make sure that they’re very clear that this is definitely the right step before they start the process because you’re already kind of switching off from your current role. And I’m not saying people would start underperforming, but you might drop from down from being an overachiever to just a steady eddy. So nobody’s really noticing much, but psychologically you’re out of the business. So to make sure it’s the right decision.
Cordelia (31:21)
Yeah,
Cordelia (31:22)
and I think as well, you know.
Cordelia (31:24)
entering recruitment processes, it takes a toll. It’s tiring, it’s stressful, it’s emotionally charged, maybe the role that you really want you end up not getting, you don’t really get the proper feedback because the client doesn’t have specific feedback, it’s just that you weren’t the best person for the role. So I think it’s also got to be the right time. I think that when you’re entering into any kind of recruitment processes, you want to try and be the happiest version
Cordelia (31:54)
of you that you can be, that you’re settled, that you’re feeling healthy and strong and good and all of those kind of the foundation blocks, right? Because if you’re not able to portray yourself in a really positive way, it’s hard then for that business to see you at your best.
Luke (32:12)
No, I agree completely. Yeah, it makes sense. And obviously, CMC works
Cordelia (32:18)
Thank you.
Luke (32:18)
in partnership with the organization. So I think, you know, obviously, there’s different levels of people who assist with the recruitment. But I truly believe anyone that works in true partnership and understands the business and understands the role and almost challenges to gather that investigative stuff is is definitely a partner of choice. Do you see that there will be any changes to?
Luke (32:40)
either the recruitment process using third party suppliers like CMC or even internally over the next like 18 months that people should be aware of. Are you seeing any kind of dramatic changes coming up?
Cordelia (32:54)
I mean, look, it’s no news to kind of say that.
Cordelia (32:59)
A lot of businesses are shedding their recruitment teams at the moment. A lot of companies are focusing on either using outsourced solutions or due to the company changing size, they don’t need to have the same number of people within those teams. And I mean, if we look on LinkedIn, the market everywhere, not in Malta, in the UK everywhere, is flooded with fantastic TA people who are looking for work.
Luke (33:27)
Yes.
Cordelia (33:29)
And I think that’s…
Cordelia (33:31)
It’s a challenging time to be looking because of the level and the calibre of candidates. I mean, I was looking and seeing some phenomenal people that I’ve known over the years that are now looking for new roles. And, you know, when you add them together and they’re in the pool all going for the same interviews, I mean, that’s a scary space to be in. lucky for the clients because they’re able to then pick and choose, but it’s difficult and scary. And I actually wrote a piece for IGB affiliate that I think it was in
Cordelia (34:01)
it’ll be released I think next week around like redundancy and how it’s everywhere at the moment and that you know most people in the gaming industry will go through it once, twice, maybe even three times in their career and that…
Luke (34:16)
Yes.
Cordelia (34:17)
it’s really downplayed the emotional impact that it has on you. You I’ve been through it myself, that you lose your entire identity and you feel like a sad, miserable loser at home when everybody else is at work. And it’s not true at all. And we shouldn’t judge ourselves on…
Cordelia (34:36)
who we are at work because we are so much more than that. But it is so difficult in that moment to then go and meet your friends and everyone’s talking about work and you’re like, well, I’ve been at home watching Netflix or, you know, I was playing squash for three hours today and it’s like, how fun that must have been great. And it’s like, all I, all I’m consumed about is trying to get the next job where I’m going to go, what I’m going to do. And I think it’s that emotional part that is really difficult for people to communicate.
Cordelia (35:06)
And I think that we all need to become better at checking in on our friends who are going through this because it is everywhere at the moment. It’s an epidemic of redundancies we can say. And sometimes just reaching out to someone and saying, look, I know it’s a shitty time, but like, how are you doing? Do you want to go for a coffee, a walk, a glass of wine, whatever it is? Because actually that’s really what that person needs. It’s not to be sitting at home applying for the 300th job in the same day, not getting any updates and being
Cordelia (35:36)
kind
Cordelia (35:36)
of stuck in this loop of like applying, applying, applying, not hearing back and then feeling despondent so that then when you get into a recruitment process, you’re so anxious about it that you can’t perform in the way that you would like to because you’re so stressed about what happens if you don’t get the job and it becomes this perpetuating cycle.
Luke (35:56)
Very much so. And that’s even something I was going to say, which is I think in the redundancy, I’ve been through it twice in my career as well, which is it almost makes you doubt your own capabilities. And then you’re literally
Cordelia (36:06)
100 percent.
Luke (36:07)
on the market trying to sell those capabilities that you’re almost in the position of doubting. And I think it’s, don’t know if organizations can do more in a redundancy process, but there does need to be something that fills that middle bit, which is almost like, how do we get people to reflect on what they are capable of, regain that confidence?
Luke (36:26)
ready to enter the job market and position themselves as the experts and as the leaders that they are. And you’re right, it’s even checking in on friends that are doing the same thing is really important. I’ve got one final question for you before you go, which is just an interesting thing to end on is, if you could give yourself, your younger self, some professional advice, looking back and professional I’m talking about. So if you could go back.
Luke (36:53)
and give your younger self some professional advice. What advice would you give yourself?
Cordelia (36:58)
That is such a good question.
Cordelia (37:02)
I think the advice that I would give to myself…
Cordelia (37:06)
is to not give my whole self at work. I think I really fell into the trap when I was a people leader of pretty big teams of sharing my whole life to help build rapport with my team. And what I really painfully realized is that the more senior you get, the more lonely you are, and the more lonely you should be at work because you have less people to chat to and you’ve got to then also
Cordelia (37:36)
be
Cordelia (37:36)
a particular level and be perceived in a certain way. It’s very different when you’re a junior employee as you continue to kind of, you know, grow and develop. And that actually…
Cordelia (37:47)
people liking you is important at work, but people respecting you is probably more important. And I think that when I was younger, I wanted everybody to like me and was so obsessed with that, that I probably made some bad calls because I didn’t want to be seen as the bad guy, which I think when it came to work decisions probably hurt me a little bit. And I think if I’m really honest,
Cordelia (38:18)
and I probably haven’t reflected on this before, so thank you. I think it probably
Luke (38:22)
Yeah
Cordelia (38:24)
held me back a little bit to get to the kind of head-of level because people saw that the team liked me, but on the respect side, that was something that needed to be earned more. And know, Jenny was my mentor when we were at Katina. We worked very, very closely together and she gave me lot of advice about this when I had joined and it was hard.
Cordelia (38:47)
to take it on board because you know I wanted my team to like me and we would go out together and have drinks together and have fun together but actually you have to have a little bit of it and for every leader it’s different but you need to have more of a separation and I realized probably a little bit too late in that part of the journey because it’s then very difficult to try and take it back. can’t go from giving all of that and then suddenly you change so then when I moved then to the next business
Cordelia (39:18)
I tried to keep more of a professional distance, still be friendly and nice and friendly and really interested in what the team were doing and what they were up to, but sharing much less of my whole self. They were able to share whatever they wanted to with me, but there was a bit more of that distance, if that makes sense.
Luke (39:36)
makes sense, it’s really good advice as well. So I appreciate that. Thank you very much for your time, Cordelia. It’s been a delight as it always is, but I think we had some really juicy conversations. So I appreciate your time. Thank you very much.
Cordelia (39:49)
Thank you.
